Template:Did you know nominations/Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!

2019-04-20T11:19:30Z

81.147.157.90:

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====Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!====
{{DYK nompage links|nompage=Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!|Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!}}
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* <s>... that one half of Gilbert and Sullivan wrote a tune for the Easter hymn "'''[[Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!]]'''" ''(pictured)''? </s>
**'''ALT0a''': <s>... that Arthur Sullivan, part of Gilbert & Sullivan, wrote a tune for the Easter hymn "'''[[Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!]]'''" ''(pictured)''?</s> Source: [https://hymnary.org/hymn/BoCP1938/166 Hymnary]
** '''ALT1''' <s>:... "'''[[Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!]]'''" ''(pictured)'' ?</s>
:* ''Reviewed'': [[Template:Did you know nominations/1920–21 Cardiff City F.C. season|1920–21 Cardiff City F.C. season]]
:* ''Comment'': For Easter Day (21 April), Alt is tongue-in-cheek
Moved to mainspace by [[User:The C of E|The C of E]] ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]). Self-nominated at 17:13, 27 March 2019 (UTC).


: [[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] Thank you for thinking of Easter early and do something about it! - Interesting facts, especially the two changes against the author's will, - wouldn't that be a hook? - Few but good sources, sadly the source for most of the article (including the nice quote) is offline but I accept it AGF, no copyvio obvious. - I don't like ALT1 at all, we played it already, and it didn't go well. - Sorry, I also don't like the image at all because it sems unrelated to the hymn. Mary of Magdala is not mentioned. I suggest you find something picturing Jesus braking the chains of death, and please from the mid <s>18th-centure</s> 19th century, matching the style, or leave it without (also in the article), or picture the writer. (I was reminded of [[Why seek ye the living?]] 2 years ago, where the match of image and style and topic was perfect, and then it couldn't appear because of sources issues ... - I'd love to use that image some day!) - Now the hook: I think the wording "one half of Gilbert and Sullivan" is unkind ;) + only speaks to those knowing G&S which may not be so many as their fans think. How about a fair link to the author? The fans WILL make the connection. - Repeating: a hook about the different versions would be more to my liking. - Article: I'd mention the chains of death in the lead because I think that's a difference to other songs with similar titles. I'd also carefully say that "the chains of sin which had restricted humanity until his resurrection" is a belief, not a fact. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 10:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
:: Gerda I think you missed that comment I said about tongue in cheek, plus I think you'll recall there was not factual objection to the similar hook until a personal opinion a few days later. if the promoter wishes to use it, it is there. I said one half because I don't think that the majority of people would connect Arthur Sullivan but they're more likely to recognise Gilbert and Sullivan (even if they are not fans). '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 10:34, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
::: For ALT1, you will to find a different reviewer, as for this image. - I think you missed my comment that people knowing Sullivan will recognise him alone, while to the others, the whole opening makes no sense. Imagine I told you "half of unknown name and another unknown name". I learned about G&S on Wikipedia, and for the longest time of my life had no idea. Don't build the hook on such a thing, readers will leave before they even get to Christ is risen. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 10:50, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
::::The majority of the English speaking world (and much of the non-English speaking one I'm sure) know them as a duo rather than by their individual names (I certainly never knew Sullivan's Christian name before this but I knew of G&S). I'm not seeing a policy based reason to object to the hook so I'm happy to leave it as it is, thank you. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 16:01, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
::::: Whenever I base a hook on a name which I think is familiar, I am reminded that it is not to the world which we address on our main page. I guess we need another pair of eyes then. You seem not to see that the wording "half of two people", even if familiar names, is not fair, and also doesn't do justice to the one who actually wrote the melody.
::::: [[File:Symbol redirect vote 4.svg|16px]] Article issues are not resolved, and I will not approve any of the hooks as worded, nor the image which is only decorative but wrong topic and wrong period. - It's for Easter, and should be of highest possible quality. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 17:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
:::::*Striking ALT1 as inappropriate in Wikipedia's voice. [[User:BlueMoonset|BlueMoonset]] ([[User talk:BlueMoonset|talk]]) 04:24, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::*"One half of Gilbert and Sullivan" is not encyclopedic. We need a new hook, please. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 17:01, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::*Fine, I have made the change {{ping|Yoninah}}. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 17:52, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::::*Hmm. But most people don't know who Arthur Sullivan is. Could you try a different angle? [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 18:07, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::: I suggest to link him, and Gilbert&Sullivan ''is'' well-known (even to me), we have a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan|Wikiproject]] for them. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 21:32, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::''(sigh)'' That was exactly why I didn't want to do that in the first place. Nevertheless I have reworded it accordingly for approval. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 21:40, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::*{{ping|The C of E}} Can we try something else please? And what about changing the image? I've reserved an image slot in Prep 4.
::::::::::::*'''ALT2''': ... that the 1862 Easter hymn "'''[[Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!]]'''" ''(pictured)'' by [[Archer Thompson Gurney|Gurney]] was virtually unknown until two revised versions were transported to the United States? [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 20:40, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::*{{ping|Yoninah}} Fine, I only went with G&S because I thought it was more recognizable but I'm OK with this one. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 21:06, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::*Thank you. Pinging {{ping|Gerda Arendt}} for a review of ALT2 and also for advice on the image. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 21:13, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::: [[File:Symbol voting keep.svg|16px]] ALT2 without picture. I would like this image to leave the article where it's only picturesque, but without any relation. In the article, the title page of the English hymnal could be used. My image advice: no image on Easter Sunday but Good Friday. Another suggestion for the article: write more lead. Another "chains of sin" seems not a frequent term in English, appearing only two more times in the English Wikipedia, "chains of death" at least seven times. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 21:22, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::I'm afraid you are wrong Gerda, the image is of Jesus appearing to Mary Magdaline after his resurrection. Something which is very much appropriate for Easter day. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 21:24, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::*I actually think this image is very clear and colorful. I don't mind it. I found the Good Friday image for [[Die sieben Worte Jesu Christi am Kreuz]] to be particularly bloody. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 21:36, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::: As I said, picturesque. The scene with Mary of Magdala is not topic of the hymn, and we will get problems with ERRORS for the caption which would need something like "Depiction" or make clear it is the title of the painting. Is it? Like Pilate, washing my hands, - I don't approve the image, and I said not even in the article. Third time: it has nothing to do with the hymn, <s>is even the wrong period, </s> and is thus misleading the readers we want to attract. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 21:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::*Could you recommend another image? [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 22:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::*I have absolutely no idea why Gerda is objecting to it. The image shows the Risen Christ, which the hymn is about. It shows him appearing after the Resurrection, which is what the hymn is about and it certainly is showing the right period as it is a portrayal of Jesus at the time of the Resurrection, which the hymn is about. Honestly, I agree with you Yoninah that it is fine to use on Easter. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 22:24, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

(ec) See above: the [[:File:Hymns Ancient and Modern (first edition 1861).jpg|title page of the hymnal]], but such things are not liked for DYK. I looked for "chains of sin" and "chains of death" on the commons, - nothing. - The C of E: I said three times that Mary of Magdala is not mentioned in the hymn, <s>and that the image is not from the 18th century as the hymn is.</s> That was the last time I said that. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 22:31, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
:The hymn is from the 19th century, and dated only 60 years before this image. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 22:38, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
:: Sorry, I had the century better further up. Little do we know about the image, when made, and promoted by whom. I'd feel uneasy exposing an image from [http://thebiblerevival.com thebiblerevival.com] on the Main page, and even in the article, let's put it like this. We had enough controversies on Easter in the past. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 06:34, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
:::*{{u|Gerda Arendt|Gerda}}, I don't understand why you are so uptight about an Easter image. I know we had a problem with an Easter hook in the past, but this hook is very straightforward and so is the image. Would you feel comfortable writing it this way? (I wanted to suggest this anyway, since the image is not depicting the hymn):
:::*'''ALT2a''': ... that the 1862 Easter hymn "'''[[Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!]]'''" ''([[Resurrection of Jesus|Jesus after Resurrection]] pictured)'' by [[Archer Thompson Gurney|Gurney]] was virtually unknown until two revised versions were sent to the United States? [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 14:09, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
::::: You will have to find another reviewer for that, sorry. I explained several times now, it's a sad waste of time. I friend died, a cathedral burnt, sad enough already. You could do what you do for Good Friday: no image. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 14:41, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
::::: ps: the image caption is better than the pictured-clause. The resurrection is ''not'' pictured, a scene afterwards is pictured, with [[Mary Magdalene]] (who doesn't recognize him, of course, at his grave mourning). --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 15:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
::::::Then you just switch it around and say "Jesus after Resurrection". Simples. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 15:18, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
:::::::*Tweaked image caption:
:::::::*'''ALT2b''':<s> ... that the 1862 Easter hymn "'''[[Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!]]'''" ''([[Resurrection of Jesus|Resurrection]] scene pictured)'' by [[Archer Thompson Gurney|Gurney]] was virtually unknown until two revised versions were sent to the United States? [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 18:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)</s>

[[File:Symbol question.svg|16px]] {{ping|Yoninah}} I am willing to approve the ALT2 (etal), as basically the same prose. I've read the sources and believe your hook is accurate. I've added an URL for online access to Source #2. The Image: If you read [[Resurrection of Jesus]], the technicalities of "resurrection" varies according to the account, according to differences from one faith to another, or etal. Was it when the stone was rolled away? Was it when Jesus actually opened his eyes and rose? Was it when he appeared outside the tomb? Was it considered part of the ascension? While there are many images of this on Commons, what you have linked above is one of the more suitable ones. I refer to [[Commons:Category:Paintings of Resurrection of Christ by century]] and just browse. Many have him carrying a flag, either white with a red cross on it [[:File:Alonso López de Herrera - The Resurrection of Christ - Google Art Project.jpg|:File:Alonso López de Herrera - The Resurrection of Christ ]], or the plain white banner [[:File:Noel-coypel-the-resurrection-of-christ-1700.jpg]] I don't remember any story (Biblical or otherwise) of Jesus that mentioned a flag in his hand. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 22:41, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

: Just a reminder: ALT2 without image IS approved, the only thing extra is the pictured clause. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 07:00, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] ALT2a approved with the image. Now the promoter can make their choice. Gerda approved ALT2 without the image. And I have approved ALT2a with the image. Two approved hooks - promoter chooses which one [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 22:38, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
: Picture is blatantly unsuitable. It simply isn't an illustration of the topic. ''Christ Is Risen! Christ Is Risen!'' is a song. The image doesn't illustrate the song. It illustrates the topic that the song is about, but that's not the topic of our article. A picture of the sheet music of this song would be an illustration. This isn't. Putting "(pictured)" after the title of the song is a classic [[Use-mention distinction|use-mention mismatch]]. This is yet another version of this same nominator's long-term attempts at smuggling Christian proselytizing declarations of faith onto the mainpage in the guise of such Easter DYK hooks, just like he did again in the earlier "ALT1" hook. He's been trying this same stunt for years, always employing the same deliberate use-mention trick. It's blatant, willful disruption. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 07:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
:: The image doesn't even illustrate the topic the song is about, as explained further up. The specific scene is not topic of the hymn. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 08:09, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
:::The hymn is about the Resurrection, the image illustrates Jesus shortly after Resurrection. '''[[User:The C of E|The C of E God Save the Queen!]]''' ([[User talk:The C of E|talk]]) 08:22, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
::::The hymn reads thus:

:1 Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:He hath burst His bonds in twain;
:Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:Alleluia! swell the strain!
:For our gain He suffered loss
:By divine decree.
:He hath died upon the cross
:But our God is He.
:Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:He hath burst His bonds in twain;
:Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:Alleluia! swell the strain!

:2 See, the chains of death are broken;
:Earth below and heaven above
:Joy in each amazing token
:Of His rising, Lord of love;
:He for evermore shall reign
:By the Father's side,
:Till he comes to earth again
:Comes to claim His bride.
:Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:He hath burst His bonds in twain;
:Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:Alleluia! swell the strain!

:3 Glorious angels downward thronging
:Hail the Lord of all the skies;
:Heaven, with joy and holy longing
:For the Word incarnate, cries,
:!Christ is risen! Earth, rejoice!
:Gleam, ye starry train!
:All creation, find a voice:
:He o'er all shall reign."
:Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:He hath burst His bonds in twain;
:Christ is risen! Christ is risen!
:O'er the universe to reign.

Amen.

They are in accord with the title, which refers to a resurrection ''which has already taken place''. By what sophistry is it argued that a picture illustrating the initial evidence of the Resurrection hours after it happened is not "about the Resurrection"? When is the cut-off time? A millisecond? A minute? A millennium (as suggested here):

{{talkquote|Future Perfect's stance is in line with an essay he has written on the subject but contrasts strongly with his insistence that a picture in [[Islamic calendar]] is one of Muhammad forbidding intercalation in the course of his Farewell Pilgrimage. The only reason he does that is because he knows Muslims find pictures of the Prophet offensive. Nobody involved with the commissioning of this picture suggests that, which is intrinsically unlikely because it depicts the Shia members of the Prophet's extended family in addition to the preacher, who is not Muhammad (who had a long beard) but most likely Ali. We know that when the Prophet delivered the Farewell Sermon he was in the open (he was actually sitting on a camel while he did it). The picture is a mosque setting. There are also no speech bubbles emanating from the Imam's mouth which might justify us in concluding that he was discussing intercalation rather than one of the other matters which the Prophet touched on in his sermon. Five people are listening to the sermon in the mosque, as opposed to the thousands who participated in the Farewell Pilgrimage.}} - 78.145.17.176 11:17, 18 April 2019

The niece of a World War II fighter pilot killed in action in Germany recently attended his funeral [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-47735783]. Are Wikipedia editors so insensitive as to say that the ceremony was nothing to do with the war hero's death? [[Special:Contributions/92.19.175.134|92.19.175.134]] ([[User talk:92.19.175.134|talk]]) 14:02, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
{{hat|"Certain people have made statements which are fabricated and totally untrue, to make me look bad." - Donald Trump, President of the United States of America, Friday 19 April 2019 At [http://www.calculator.net]'s "Love Calculator" I punched in "Donald Trump" and "Robert S Mueller". Guess what the percentage was. The commentary reads:"This level of love is equivalent to a cat's love of boxes. It may not be immediately evident, but take a look in the box and you might just find something ready to jump out at you."}}
''Posting by banned user removed. – [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 20:44, 19 April 2019 (UTC)''
{{hab}}
: Sorry to see hurt feelings. - It's a completely different point: We are not at all encouraged to ictured the topics of songs. A sheet of music, a composer's portrait, those are suitable images. Compare [[O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig]]. FPaS also meant that it pictures the topic ''as criticisms'', and I said, worse than that. --[[User:Gerda Arendt|Gerda Arendt]] ([[User talk:Gerda Arendt|talk]]) 14:46, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
:: But why stop with a composer's portrait? What's wrong with a picture of a choir singing the hymn in Westminster Abbey (but then you would need a reliable source confirming that that is what they were singing, as opposed to another hymn). The limitation is illogical. [[Special:Contributions/81.147.157.90|81.147.157.90]] ([[User talk:81.147.157.90|talk]]) 11:19, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
{{-}}}}

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