Difference between revisions of "Template:Did you know nominations/Theodore Katsanevas"
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:::Reiterating support for hook 7, per my comment time-stamped '17:32, 17 February 2014'. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 17:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | :::Reiterating support for hook 7, per my comment time-stamped '17:32, 17 February 2014'. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Talk to Andy]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 17:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
::::The issue here isn't the content of articles, but rather the statements that are highlighted on the main page. In the context of the litigation, don't you see how putting the "disgrace to the family" words on the main page could be received as rubbing the article subject's nose in a bit of excrement? --[[User:Orlady|Orlady]] ([[User talk:Orlady|talk]]) 21:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ::::The issue here isn't the content of articles, but rather the statements that are highlighted on the main page. In the context of the litigation, don't you see how putting the "disgrace to the family" words on the main page could be received as rubbing the article subject's nose in a bit of excrement? --[[User:Orlady|Orlady]] ([[User talk:Orlady|talk]]) 21:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
+ | :::::Regardless of any legal ramifications, I find ALT8 focusing on the current Streisand effect more timely and interesting than ALT7 which focuses on language in a will that has been public since 1996.[[Special:Contributions/24.151.116.25|24.151.116.25]] ([[User talk:24.151.116.25|talk]]) 23:03, 13 March 2014 (UTC) | ||
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Revision as of 23:03, 13 March 2014
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Theodore Katsanevas
... that the Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas was reportedly defined a "disgrace" for the family by his father-in-law and former PM Andreas Papandreou (pictured)?
- ALT1:
... that the Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas was defined a "disgrace" in the will of Andreas Papandreou, his father-in-law and former PM (pictured)? - Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Dewey Decimal Classification
- Comment: Please review speedily.
I'm looking for a free photo and a DYK to proposethis is the only related free photo that can be found.
- ALT1:
Created by Pigsonthewing (talk). Nominated by Nemo bis (talk) at 16:57, 15 February 2014 (UTC).
The article is long enough at 1920 characters of prose. The hook is short enough, at 164 characters. The article is new.
Only oneTwo of the English language sources directly cited for the hook usesthe word "Disgrace". (I can't review the Greek-language ones.)The SFGate source now links to a completely different story, a better link should be found or the source removed.The DYKcheck tool reports that the article is marked as a stub, although i don't see any stub tag. The Hook is surely interesting. The image in the template is not yet in the article. This can and should be cleaned up enough to pass, but I don't think it passes at the moment. DES (talk) 19:00, 15 February 2014 (UTC)- Thanks for the review. You're right, the sourcing was improvable and it's now better: there are three sources for the word "disgrace" (hri.org, SFgate, thepressproject; the first being quite "official"); I also added a source for the translation of disgrazia into disgrace, note that Corriere della sera is the most important newspaper of Italy hence there is no better news source possible from Western Europe I'd say. --Nemo 19:45, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- A better, free, picture is File:Andreas Papandreou (1968).jpg, but neither is really relevant in the article under review. Another day or two should see plenty of English-language sources emerge. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:05, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- Do you think it's better to remove the image? As Katsanevas says in his reactions to his will referenced in the article, Papandreou played a crucial role in his life and career, it wouldn't be out of place in the article either. [1] could be considered PD if the biography of a prof. is mandated by a law or policy and if universities are considered a branch of the public administration in Greece (commons:Template:PD-GreekGov), but this would need some better research. --Nemo 19:45, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- I have no opinion on using a picture, but somehow the tomb doesn't seem like a good choice. Any picture used should, i would think, be in the article, or else in another linked article (linked in the hook I mean). I was incorrect about the SFGate source, and I have corrected my comments above. The image and the stub tag if there really is one there, now seem to be the only things holding this up. It would be nice if the article was divided into sections, but it is not big enough for this to be required, in my view. DES (talk) 19:56, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- The article is no longer a stub. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:28, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- OK, I've divided it in two sections which seem relevant and added the photo in both the article and the proposed DYK above. The stub template has been removed hours ago, perhaps the tool is querying outdated data
- You probably all know what PM stands for? Readers can find out the exact family relationship in the article, don't tell them all.
- ALT2:
... that the Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas was reportedly named a disgrace for the family in the will of former prime minister Andreas Papandreou (pictured)?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)- ALT3
... that the Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas was reportedly named a "disgrace for the family" in the will of former prime minister Andreas Papandreou, his father-in-law (pictured)?DES (talk) 20:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- ALT3
- OK, I've divided it in two sections which seem relevant and added the photo in both the article and the proposed DYK above. The stub template has been removed hours ago, perhaps the tool is querying outdated data
- Do you think it's better to remove the image? As Katsanevas says in his reactions to his will referenced in the article, Papandreou played a crucial role in his life and career, it wouldn't be out of place in the article either. [1] could be considered PD if the biography of a prof. is mandated by a law or policy and if universities are considered a branch of the public administration in Greece (commons:Template:PD-GreekGov), but this would need some better research. --Nemo 19:45, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
Issues dealt with, QPQ done, image ok, looks good to go as soon as one hook or another is selected. i prefer Alt3, but any would be acceptable. DES (talk) 20:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- If ALT3, I would move (pictured) behind his name, - it's the person who is pictured, not his family status. Imagine: I don't think the term father-in-law makes the hook more attractive ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- On the placment of "(pictured)" you are correct, it should follow the name. I found ALT2 confusin because it gives no indication of what the relation or connection between Katsanevas and Papandreou is. Part of the point of the hook, to me is that this is in part, a family dispute. So...
- ALT4:
... that the Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas was reportedly named a "disgrace for the family" in the will of his father-in-law, former prime minister Andreas Papandreou (pictured)?DES (talk) 23:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
- I'm ok with ALT3 + Gerda's amendment. --Nemo 23:38, 15 February 2014 (UTC) P.s.: That is, with ALT4 above.
A reminder: a court hearing related to the subject is going to take place in March 11th WMF blog
Greek Wikipedia announcement. It may be provocative for the court to highlight it on the Main Page and focus on this more than it is needed. I suggest to get advice from Michelle Paulson before putting it in the DYK section. -geraki TL 10:41, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Correct symbol. The big orange x is for when there is pretty much no way in h*** an article will make it to the MP. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:25, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- This is a routine editorial decision and it won't be affected by anything other than Wikipedia's pillars and neutrality. Hic manebimus optime. --Nemo 15:47, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
- Have you read that WMF blog post? Its spirit is that we should be able to write about notable subjects, according to our usual policies, without being cowed by dubious legal action. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:32, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
- ALT5:
... that the Greek academic and politician Theodore Katsanevas has sued a Greek Wikipedia administrator for defamation and succeeded in getting a judge to order him to remove the fact that Katsanevas was reportedly named a "disgrace for the family" in the will of his father-in-law, former prime minister Andreas Papandreou?24.151.116.25 (talk) 19:20, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
- Striking ALT5 as far too long for DYK at 320 characters. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:26, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
- Some comments on the other hooks: the original hook and ALT1 use "defined" which doesn't seem correct; the article currently says "described", which makes more sense, and "called" would also work. ALT2, ALT3, and ALT4 all use "disgrace for the family" (though ALT2 does not have the phrase in quotes), while the article uses the more common and better "disgrace to the family" wording (quoted). I strongly suggest that if any of these hooks are eventually used, they be modified with the more accurate and effective wording noted here. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:41, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Comment - Agree with BlueMoonset, and if my two cents on this issue matter, I have no objection with the hook running and don't see any policy explicitly against it, but insist on accuracy/fidelity to the sources given the litigious nature of this bête noire who is the subject of the article. I think this ilithios Katsanevas just created another example of the Streisand effect, and has proven the correctness of his father-in-law's judgment of him, but we should stick directly to what is asserted by the reliable sources provided.--ColonelHenry (talk) 18:18, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
- ALT6: ... that the Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas was reportedly called a "disgrace to the family" in the will of his father-in-law, former prime minister Andreas Papandreou (pictured)?
- Thanks for the suggestions. I think we're way more than ready to go, if the only objections are such just but surely minor nitpicks. :) Can someone add it to the actual DYK? Or can I do so myself even though I'm the proposer? --Nemo 19:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
Nemo, you are the one person who absolutely may not approve or promote this nomination, since you are the nominator and furthermore have proposed the only surviving hook. (I've just struck the other hooks due to those wording issues I noted.) Given the number of edits to the article since the most recent positive review, this should be given a final review, and the review should go beyond just checking ALT6 to explicitly cover issues of neutrality and do a close paraphrase check (which doesn't appear to have been done before), as well as confirm that it meets BLP guidelines. Once that's done it should be ready to go, but definitely not before then. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:41, 28 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm adding:
- ALT7: ... that the Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas was called a "disgrace to the family" in the will of his father-in-law, former prime minister Andreas Papandreou (pictured)?
which differs from ALT6 only in dropping the weasel-word "reportedly", which is not in the article. Why is this nomination still not promoted, after nearly a month, particularly when the nominator requested speedy action? The changes since 16 Feb are not significant. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:46, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
I would say good to go on ALT7. --ColonelHenry (talk) 15:15, 12 March 2014 (UTC)
I pulled the hook from prep 4. Regardless of the merits of the hook (the hook looks entirely valid), given that there is current/recent litigation over the way this living person has been described in another Wikipedia, it would be really stupid timing to highlight this fact on the main page right now. Maybe an alternative hook can be written about how his story demonstrates the Streisand effect. --Orlady (talk) 17:08, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- New suggestion:
- ALT8: ... that legal action by Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas over the Greek Wikipedia article about him may have resulted in a Streisand effect? --Orlady (talk) 17:24, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Reiterating support for hook 7, per my comment time-stamped '17:32, 17 February 2014'. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- The issue here isn't the content of articles, but rather the statements that are highlighted on the main page. In the context of the litigation, don't you see how putting the "disgrace to the family" words on the main page could be received as rubbing the article subject's nose in a bit of excrement? --Orlady (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Regardless of any legal ramifications, I find ALT8 focusing on the current Streisand effect more timely and interesting than ALT7 which focuses on language in a will that has been public since 1996.24.151.116.25 (talk) 23:03, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- The issue here isn't the content of articles, but rather the statements that are highlighted on the main page. In the context of the litigation, don't you see how putting the "disgrace to the family" words on the main page could be received as rubbing the article subject's nose in a bit of excrement? --Orlady (talk) 21:51, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- Reiterating support for hook 7, per my comment time-stamped '17:32, 17 February 2014'. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:29, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
- ALT8: ... that legal action by Greek politician Theodore Katsanevas over the Greek Wikipedia article about him may have resulted in a Streisand effect? --Orlady (talk) 17:24, 13 March 2014 (UTC)