Template:Did you know nominations/Amy Wax

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Revision as of 23:14, 13 June 2019 by imported>Narutolovehinata5 (reply)
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Amy Wax

Created by Mhym (talk). Self-nominated at 02:43, 6 April 2019 (UTC).

  • Symbol possible vote.svg Comment. There was an earlier (first paragraphs nearly identical, except for some deletions by the nom in this second one) version of this page at AFC by an editor other than the nom here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Amy_Wax&action=edit&redlink=1 In some ways that earlier version was better -- it had footnotes for every assertion in the first few paragraphs, while in this version nom took them out. This version also needs grammar cleanup - "the" and "a" and similar words were dropped from the first version, where needed. Also, some facts, like that the subject attended Harvard Law School, were deleted for some reason. I think if the first version is made viewable and this one is improved along these lines this will be better for approval for this category. Also, when in this version nom writes "Amy Wax has been called "notorious..", maybe it would be an improvement to say by whom. Also, it may be a good idea to have the controversy paragraph, which presents only one side, instead comply with wp:npov (representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic; and switching out "claimed" for "said"; etc.).2604:2000:E010:1100:A066:E3A3:DD44:3FFC (talk) 17:02, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
  • This is a stub, not a WP:GA. I agree it can use some work. That's part of the purpose of DYK - to bring attention to new or newly revised article, if I remember correctly. As to your assertion - I did not copy anyone's previous article but wrote from scratch instead. Some technical wording is copied from Wax's CV, which may explain similarities. I don't think terminology and official award titles are a copyvio. Please fee free to improve the article and/or the hook. Mhym (talk) 07:12, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks. First, can an admin please make available the article that was hidden from view here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Amy_Wax&action=edit&redlink=1 ? It has important information that should be in this article, for one thing. Its was created before this draft, its deletion followed shortly (by mere hours) the submission of this article, and its deletion is not un-controversial (which was the asserted basis for its deletion).
Second, I agree a stub is fine. But for an article to appear at DYK on the main page, I think we should be careful to have footnotes for every assertion. The deleted draft had them - for the same information where the footnotes are missing here. One of the reasons I have asked for the deleted draft page to be restored.
The prior version also has fixes to the grammatical problems of missing words that I noted we have in this second version. For the main page, I do not think we want such errors.
Also, you did not say anything about the problem I pointed out with the controversy paragraph you drafted. It presents only one side. I think for the main page in particular, we would want to comply with wp:npov. This does not. To do that we would have to represent fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on the topic. We would also switch out "claimed" for "said", as wp:npov suggests.2604:2000:E010:1100:CD84:F876:2C42:BC9E (talk) 22:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
  • As far as providing all the refs and links - I don't have access to those which used to be there. Please help me with this if you have them. I guess I don't see any vio of WP:NPOV. Basically, it's all biographical, no opinion based. As in she said something. Others didn't like it. Some people called on UPenn to fire her. UPenn didn't. What exactly is non-neutral here? Reporting groundswell of support of Wax? I don't know if that happened. Mhym (talk) 01:30, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Happy to help. I've now twice asked the editor who deleted it to restore it (in addition, it its deletion is not controversial, the reason given for deleting it). I've also asked here - maybe an admin here will help. It has more information (her attending Harvard Law, family background, etc). If you read NPOV, you will see that the cherry-picking of those with one view of her statement, while leaving out completely those who support her statement (or her right to make it), is something we are supposed to try to avoid. There are a number of articles pointing out the other camp; in your research you would have seen them. If you want me to, I will do the work. Also, saying "claimed" instead of "said" - as the guideline states - is a sign of not being sensitive to the need for npov. The guideline explains why. Anyway, once we get the original draft, which was more complete and had all the references that are missing, I will be happy to help you get this promoted. BTW - what inspired you to write this article just now (unless it was coincidence), while there was another draft article awaiting promotion (that incident was in the news, but quite a while ago)?2604:2000:E010:1100:B951:7500:D62B:D57A (talk) 00:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Glad to hear you can help. I came across critique/praise of her research work, tried to look her up and found no WP article. I don't care for the controversies and didn't hear them at the time. But they clearly make her notable, probably more than her research work, unfortunately. Thus I included the section. AFIK, the wording can be massaged and improved in any way. That's also why I made a DYK nom - so that other editor help improve on the article while I am no longer very involved. Mhym (talk) 05:06, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Great. I am happy to help you improve this article as soon as an admin helps us by restoring for reference the draft that preceded this one, with the relevant text and footnotes that this later version is missing. It was deleted as a "non-controversial" deletion, but since there is now controversy about it being deleted, I hope an admin can restore it (at least long enough for us to look at it to improve this one). Then we can improve this, improve the npov issue, and put this in shape for a DYK for you. 2604:2000:E010:1100:B951:7500:D62B:D57A (talk) 05:26, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Here, see why this was so weird! Just when the draft of this subject was cleared of any question of copyvio, after it had been sitting awaiting for a couple of days for all to see, as it awaited promotion to article status -- that was the very same day of all days that your article was created! [1] And its not as though she was in the news that day, or week, or month. And as you can see, the article that had been put up for review prior to your draft is very similar (except for the last paragraph that yours added). [2] I will work now to help you to make your draft better, adding the omitted footnotes, etc.2604:2000:E010:1100:D0B2:B1DE:173C:580 (talk) 17:08, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your work! The article is in a good shape now and ready for review. Mhym (talk) 19:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Drive-by comment: I would recommend against using the word "controversial" in a hook without explaining how she has been controversial. feminist (talk) 06:34, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Came to suggest the same thing. Taken by itself, "controversial" is confusing because it doesn't define what kind of statements caused the controversy. hinnk (talk) 03:49, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol question.svg I agree with the above two comments. I think the article itself is now fine. I added the footnotes from the prior article, so that every assertion has a footnote. And there is now a balance in the controversy section, with views on both sides reflected -- rather than just one side. But as the prior editors point out, the hook could use some massaging (also, the bit in the third hook about race relations isn't quite accurate). 2604:2000:E010:1100:A82D:DCDC:4C65:430B (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Symbol confirmed.svg - New enough, long enough, inline citations checks out. I prefer the second hook. Good to go.BabbaQ (talk) 11:24, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Symbol possible vote.svg I've had to pull this from prep for two reasons: firstly, there were objections by other editors above that the word "controversial" shouldn't be used in the hook, and secondly, the nominator appears to have more than five DYK credits (based on their talk page) and appears to have not done a QPQ. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I am the nominator. My last nom was in 2010. I have no idea what is QPQ, but I am guessing this is a post-2010 invention. For practical purposes, after so many years, I am a newcomer. Please WP:DBN! Mhym (talk) 16:25, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
As your last nomination was before the QPQ rule was implemented, perhaps there could be an WP:IAR case here and ignore that requirement for the purposes of this nomination (if you want to read more about the rule, please read WP:QPQ). However, there is still the problem of the hooks having the word "controversial", which other editors have objected to. One possible solution could be to simply delete the word from the hooks, though I'm not sure if there's consensus that this would solve the issue. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:01, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
I am the 2604 IP above. I'm ok with the article, and ok with the hook with the word controversial (it is a hook -- it is supposed to hook the reader in to get them to read more, not explain everything .. as wp:hook says it should be "short, punchy, catchy, and likely to draw the readers in to wanting to read the article") or without the word controversial. 2604:2000:E010:1100:A4C1:B86F:6F82:993D (talk) 03:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
You may want to read WP:BLP. In any case, I think referring to a living person as "controversial", especially on the main page, regardless of whatever really happened, is a very very bad idea. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:56, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
I would actually prefer ALT2 which moves "controversial" away from Dr. Wax to her statements. There is no BLP issue in that case, as numerous issues are controversial by their nature, including race relations. Mhym (talk) 14:09, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
Agree. And her comments being controversial is mentioned and referenced in the article itself. And -- get this -- the living person herself (Wax) wrote in the Wall Street Journal that she wrote "a controversial op-ed." I don't see a BLP issue here at all, under the circumstances. 2604:2000:E010:1100:9DA0:73BE:71E9:B67E (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
There still appears to be reservations about the use of the word "controversial", and based on the comments by Template:U and Template:U above, I'm not sure if ALT2 would be enough to allay those concerns. A new direction may be needed in any case. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:14, 13 June 2019 (UTC)