Template:Did you know nominations/Helicia
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Revision as of 02:57, 28 April 2013 by imported>Rufous-crowned Sparrow (re Anon 198.228.216.170)
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Helicia
- ... that there are around 100 species of Helicia (H. glabriflora pictured) found from Sri Lanka and China to Australia?
5x expanded by Macropneuma (talk), Casliber (talk). Nominated by Casliber (talk) at 09:30, 22 April 2013 (UTC).
Great job on the article. Out of curiosity, did you mean to say India instead of Sri Lanka? I'm not seeing the words "Sri Lanka" anywhere in the article, but many references to the Indian subcontinent. If you put an inline cite in for Sri Lanka or replace Sri Lanka with India it gets my stamp of approval. Picture looks good to me. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:23, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yay! Thanks. I'm grateful, particularly for the good pick up and detective work. I’ll get onto that point now. Sources exist also for the few Sri Lanka occurrences of one endemic (or more?) Helicia species, but so far i missed giving those sentences and the Sri Lankan & Indian listed species their explicit citations. Although old, in 1956, the easiest source to appreciate and to freely access on the internet is the Helicia biogeography map and its explanatory caption here (note Ceylon→Sri Lanka), in Flora Malesiana. I'm in the process of obtaining additional higher quality reference sources for the Indian subcontinent, and parts of SE Asia. Later, there’s much more to add to this article from present and additional sources. Especially, additional missing currently accepted species names (not synonyms), which i have yet to confirm their accepted status and get all their good old ref. sources. —--macropneuma 01:33, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Done! By the way can we alter the hook line to include New Guinea please? (–as the centre of diversity in the World. With or without its wikilink.) —--macropneuma 04:48, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. Propose an alternate hook below (with wikilinks I think) and I'll give it a look. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 05:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Alt 1 ... that approximately 100 species of Helicia trees (H. glabriflora pictured) grow from New Guinea and Australia to Japan, China and Sri Lanka?
- While i'm proposing i thought of some more improvements in this alternative above, in my terms. Options i think of instead of "around": (nothing simply: 100), "ca." preferred but is that commonly known, "about", "approx." or "approximately". —--macropneuma 06:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC) —Correcting *our* typos and a little more clarifying.—--macropneuma 10:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
16px for Alt 1.(Strikethrough added by TheOriginalSoni (talk) following concerns raised by IP) I slipped approximately into Alt 2, though I'd also approve "about" if you prefer. Inline citing looks good. Not certain about wikilinking countries, but the final guy will know. Good work. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 15:02, 24 April 2013 (UTC)- Thanks, reads and sounds good to me. By the way New Guinea … a minor side point for interest, countries or islands or island subcontinents—<my happy smile>—it’s all the same to me in this context! The only question will be is it acceptable to have an additional wikilink in the hook, of that main geographic region, subtly implying that that’s the centre of diversity, which readers will find later? For your edification though, New Guinea means the whole island subcontinent, including Papua New Guinea and West Papua (region) (Indonesia – (occupying) nationality at the moment – controversially).
- New Guinea works well as the name—of that unique region; works well as rising above the in fact atrocious politics of occupation and the mass open cut mining corporations, controversies; works well as the mainstream biogeographic science way. See at the dab: Papua, WP has wording troubles cause of this politics and Indonesian WP editors vs. different ed’s.
- Then there’s the useful word Papuasia—used in scholarly botany and zoology studies—but i haven't found any supporting WP articles or use of Papuasia in WP. Papuasia, as you probably know, refers to the wider region, including northern Australia and SW Pacific, centred on the New Guinea island (versus the partly overlapping Malesia region, centred west of New Guinea). 'Nice if we could use Papuasia instead of New Guinea. Phew! I know your great works on birds, so i’m relating with biogeography extra words and clarification! (2:25am) 'night! —--macropneuma 16:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- Sure. Propose an alternate hook below (with wikilinks I think) and I'll give it a look. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 05:24, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
- This article is very difficult to read; it is primarily a description of the literature in which various species were formally described. This could be accomplished with significantly less text, to make for a readable article. In addition, I can see the point of two citations for a formal name (the original citation and the citation referencing that as the original), but are there reasons for three? And, Macropneuma, no, I won't read 57 dense paragraphs in response. (Previously removed as PA by macropneuma, restored by TheOriginalSoni (talk)) -68.107.137.178 (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
- Wrongheaded. Studiously ignore! Falsely exaggerated negativity; Has ignored meanings of all words above and elsewhere; WP:WIKIHOUNDING; Has looked for trouble with many admins and editors—which is easy to find—otherwise diffs provided on admin request (Previously removed as PA by IP, restored by TheOriginalSoni (talk)) Of course, this recent 'start' article has much more expansion yet to come, from the sources; reference sources get added first then later the prose gets expanded, from those sources; about 100 species with only about 100 refs is a well done small number. —--macropneuma 12:18, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
- This article has a lot of problems and should not go on the front page while suffering serious problems and ownership issues. DYK is not closed, and DYKs require community consensus. Ownership issues prevent community consensus.(Previously removed as PA by macropneuma, restored by TheOriginalSoni (talk))-166.137.210.34 (talk) 18:16, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
- ? - can you please raise specific issues on the article talk page. Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:12, 26 April 2013 (UTC) (for instance: List_of_Tulostoma_species, List of Ericaceae genera, Backaria?, List of Oenothera species and many more lists and great articles with lists. Yay! for Circeus)
- Note to the admin/editor managing queues - Do not add it to the queue until the specific concerns of the IP are solved. macropneuma, you should NEVER remove anybody's comments stating its Personal Attack when it is not. The IP was correct in his removal of your PA, but to be fair,I have restored both removed portions. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 00:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- Also note for anyone concerned - This issue was brought to my notice following a question filed at the Teahouse. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- Which are what? Yes, a good chunk of the article is a list of the species in the genus, but that is standard for a genus article and does not count for the expansion. I believe the diversity and distribution and the cultivation sections alone count for the expansion of the article, and they are quite readable. Part of the job of a genus article is to outline the taxonomic history of said genus; it is all contained within one section that can be skipped if it is not of interest, and I thought it was at least decently well written. Per the claims of ownership, I don't see a single edit in its history since February that wasn't made by a bot or one of the nominators; how can ownership be claimed if no one has tried to edit it? macropneuma should not have removed the comment, but what precisely is preventing it from being promoted? That it is overcited? Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- The ownership issue is refusing to allow participation in this DYK nomination. The section on the naming is problematic, and I have raised the issue on the talk page. It is not comprehensible due to its convoluted nature,and this article is about the genus, not about the naming of the genus, this could be written in a straight forward manner. I do not know if shortening it will cause the length to be too short for DYK, but there is no need to include the direct Latin in old script for an article on a genus. I do not think anyone raised an issue about the species list, that could be in a separate list article or not. -198.228.216.170 (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- By my count, the article meets the DYK requirements solely with the Diversity and distribution and the Cultivation sections. I have to disagree with you; the taxonomic history of a genus (or family, or species) is important to understanding its place in the natural world and its evolution over time, and most good animal, plant, and fungus articles have a similar section that varies in length per the information available. The generic name's etymology is also interesting as it gives insight into what the namer of the genus thought made it distinct (or is used simply to honor a friend, or benefactor, or auctioned off online (GoldenPalace.com monkey).
- Which of the DYK requirements do you feel that the article does not meet (at the top of this page as you try to edit it)? Any issues with the content of the page in terms of complexity of language are more for the article itself, not for a DYK as I understand it. My suggestion would be to draft a revision of the Taxonomy and either be bold and post it (if it does not cut out information) or propose it on the article's talk page for commentary (if it does cut out information). Regardless, I do not think this impacts the DYK itself but is rather an issue for the article and its talk page; if you disagree, please note what of the above criteria you do not believe this page meets. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 02:57, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- The ownership issue is refusing to allow participation in this DYK nomination. The section on the naming is problematic, and I have raised the issue on the talk page. It is not comprehensible due to its convoluted nature,and this article is about the genus, not about the naming of the genus, this could be written in a straight forward manner. I do not know if shortening it will cause the length to be too short for DYK, but there is no need to include the direct Latin in old script for an article on a genus. I do not think anyone raised an issue about the species list, that could be in a separate list article or not. -198.228.216.170 (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- Which are what? Yes, a good chunk of the article is a list of the species in the genus, but that is standard for a genus article and does not count for the expansion. I believe the diversity and distribution and the cultivation sections alone count for the expansion of the article, and they are quite readable. Part of the job of a genus article is to outline the taxonomic history of said genus; it is all contained within one section that can be skipped if it is not of interest, and I thought it was at least decently well written. Per the claims of ownership, I don't see a single edit in its history since February that wasn't made by a bot or one of the nominators; how can ownership be claimed if no one has tried to edit it? macropneuma should not have removed the comment, but what precisely is preventing it from being promoted? That it is overcited? Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:54, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
- Also note for anyone concerned - This issue was brought to my notice following a question filed at the Teahouse. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 00:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
